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Thread: hey Azal

  1. #1
    Member
    Registered: May 2002

    hey Azal

    deleted

    gander at the contents of cd 2. its been around awhile.
    Last edited by necrokrome; 17th Jun 2003 at 17:12.

  2. #2
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2001
    Location: Marlboro, MA, USA
    please kindly remove that link and mention of the certain files - TTLG wants no part of it and I FULLY respect that
    The Keep for Thief 1 and 2 FMs, Shadowdark for Thief 3 and Dark Mod FMs

  3. #3
    Member
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Black Squadron
    What the hell kind of cds do you use that cost $76 for 12?!
    Are they famous?

  4. #4
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2000
    Location: best coast
    Nah Dave, 12 blank cd's wouldn't cost more then 20 bucks to buy and ship in the US, but I'm sure he has permission from everyone who made that stuff to turn a profit for himself on it.

  5. #5
    Previously Important
    Registered: Nov 1999
    Location: Caer Weasel, Uelekevu
    Ben, I'll have to ask you to please remove "Benny's Dead" from the CDs, as it's pretty clear to me that you've been turning a substantial profit from the distribution of FMs.

    "A gift for donating" is just wordplay.

  6. #6
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2000
    Location: Australia
    What GMB said, substituting "Just For Show", which also states in the readme that it's not to be included in any map packs (and to my defination, that's what a CD loaded with FMs is) without my permission, which I don't ever recall giving.

    Got that illegal no-CD crack in there too, go you!

  7. #7
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2002
    Location: New Zealand
    I'm going to say the same thing with regard to <i>A Mission With No Name</i>, and for the same reasons. Please do not put it on any disc which will be exchanged for money.

  8. #8
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2002
    If it really does all go toward keeping his site up, then I suppose it is somewhat justified, but I can't help feeling as if I agree with the sentiments expressed here. The dodgy legal loophole thing doesn't really help, although I can see where it's coming from.

  9. #9
    Member
    Registered: May 1999
    Location: You are Here

    Re: hey Azal

    Originally posted by necrokrome
    gander at the contents of cd 2. its been around awhile.

    Seeing as how that site is not owned by Digital Nightfall or Saam (the owners of TTLG and its subsidiary sites) the fact that it is promoting illegal software has no bearing on what is allowed on these forums.

  10. #10
    Member
    Registered: May 2002

    eep

    ah so this is news to everyone, hmm i thought most in the thief community knew about it, again its been around awhile. due to that was the reason i asked for the thingy, which i thought was an accepted dealy. oops i wasnt meaning to be the flag waver for warez. i was just getting tired of my crappy phillips cdrw and wanted a shortcut. sorry guys. i thought the cd collections on that site were compiled with the consent of the respective fanmission authors, i guess not. i suppose some good will come of this by bringing it to everyones attention.

  11. #11
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2000

    >i thought the cd collections on that site were compiled with the consent of the respective fanmission authors, i guess not.

    They were, with the assumption that it would be strictly non-profit.

    dodgy, komag.

  12. #12
    Member
    Registered: May 2002

    eep

    wait a minute. i didnt mean to insinuate that Komag was doing anything wrong thats a matter of opinion. however i think his heart is in the right place by providing a means to get fan missions especially to those with slow connections not to mention a site of good content. if someone is too cheap to buy the $10 thief cd then thier certainly too cheap to donate to Komag. i just made the mistake of assuming the forbidden 'thingy' was accepted amonst the thief community by the example of the donation fan mission cd's albiet somewhat proxied. my bad. still, the matter of the individual authors wishes regarding distribution is another matter. again its the thought that counts and that should be considered before condemnation. sorry Komag i wasnt trying to bust you balls.

  13. #13
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: House of Sand and Fog
    Hmm.. Looks like someone set off a wildfire here.. Hasn't Komag always worked this way, though? Donate money, get free CDs. Or send him CDs and/or shipping costs and get CDs without a profit for webhosting?

    It does have this on his donation page:

    Remember, the CDs and DVDs are FREE. Please note, this payment is a donation, not for the actual fan missions or for any of the other files on the CDs or DVDs. Those files and programs are FREE, and you can get them for FREE by shipping me all the materials and postage paid packaging as outlined further below.

    Also, remember that the extra proceeds all go towards the Keep of Metal and Gold, a very good cause if you ask me! :-)

    By the way, If you forget to tell me which discs you want in the comments section of the Paypal order, you can just email me and let me know

    If you want to simply help and not get any CDs/DVDs, please donate, either by mail or by Paypal, and you can just tell me that you don't want the gifts.
    And as he at least claims it's all going towards maintaining his site (it doesn't come for free, you know) one would think he isn't doing anything illegal? He doesn't blatantly come out and say he's using the money to get a new car, and I think he's been around for some time.. I guess I could understand FM authors not wanting any profit to be made from their missions, but if he's telling the truth I don't think folks should go off this much.................

    Maybe I'm just confused .

    deadman.
    "I cannot see anything admirable in stupidity, injustice and sheer incompetence in high places, and there is too much of all three in the present administration." -M.M.Kaye, The Far Pavilions

  14. #14
    Thiefmissions.com
    Moderator

    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Houston, Tx., USA
    Someone once asked me why I won't get involved with money....

  15. #15
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2001
    Location: Marlboro, MA, USA
    I'll remove those specified missions you guys if you really want to. I've been taking donations for a long time now, with the FMCDs as an incentive. Once again, anyone in the world can get them all for FREE if they send me all the packaging/materials/postage.

    G-man, you specifically should have known all along that this was my setup, from a while back when you were concerned about "profiting" and I switched to the whole donation deal to be more safe and told you about the change and you seemed like it was a good idea - why the change of heart?

    Folks, I DON'T use the money from FMCD for ANYTHING other than website expenses - THAT'S IT! Many times I've almost erased everything to do with them off my computer and said "To HECK with this crap, it takes too much time, and for what!", but I love Thief and I like having my website and so I keep on doing the FMCDs.
    The Keep for Thief 1 and 2 FMs, Shadowdark for Thief 3 and Dark Mod FMs

  16. #16
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: House of Sand and Fog

    This means war.

    Originally posted by Komag
    Folks, I DON'T use the money from FMCD for ANYTHING other than website expenses - THAT'S IT! Many times I've almost erased everything to do with them off my computer and said "To HECK with this crap, it takes too much time, and for what!", but I love Thief and I like having my website and so I keep on doing the FMCDs.
    For what it's worth, Komag, I'm pulling for you. I think this is silly to suddenly say "What's this? He's pocketing money on our FMs??!! Down with the scoundrel!" when, as you say, it's been going on for some time.. And again, web-hosting ain't free. There is nothing wrong, in my opinion, to offer the incentive of free FM CDs for donations. True, the main desire behind 'donating' may be to get the CDs, but the fact is you make it clear the CDs can be had for free! You aren't demanding a profit (i.e., "send two envelopes, the CDs, and five bucks in the mail") and you certainly aren't telling people they'll only get CDs if they donate, so what's the fuss? I know I have little power in this argument as I've never released anything myself, but if I did I can be fairly certain I wouldn't mind you doing this. Again, he is making no profit! Money going into his site, which the whole lot of you leech off on a regular basis is not profit! This is like accusing an employer of paying his workers too much because they have enough money every month to barely pay for their water, heat, and mortgage bills. This is total bollocks! Ok, I apologize for that outburst, but seriously, what the taff?

    deadman.

    EDIT: In response to the last few lines of your post, don't give up on account of a few taffers who horribly misunderstand you. Just like Jason, you are very much appreciated and needed by the majority of us. Who can resent you when they really sit down, think about the facts, and make an informed decision?
    "I cannot see anything admirable in stupidity, injustice and sheer incompetence in high places, and there is too much of all three in the present administration." -M.M.Kaye, The Far Pavilions

  17. #17
    Taking a break
    Registered: Apr 2002
    Location: Rampart Range
    Komag is a great help to the Thief community, ESPECIALLY for those of us
    who only have crappy 56k connections! Feel free to use my FM's on
    your CD's always!!

  18. #18
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2002
    GBM: You really should read your own license on Benny's Dead:
    Permission is given to freely play and distribute this level, provided that it remains whole and intact.

  19. #19
    Previously Important
    Registered: Nov 1999
    Location: Caer Weasel, Uelekevu
    That's totally irrelevant.
    I have given permission to distribute my level. But I am not allowed to give permission to distribute my level in a way that generates money, no matter how sideways it does it. In fact, none of us are. Read the DromEd EULA. And also think about how little I appreciate my work making even the tiniest bit of money for someone else, given that I am expressly forbidden to make money off it myself.

    Permission was granted, permission has been taken away.

    If anyone thinks I'm interested in getting my nuts in a bind with Eidos, they can think again. And if anyone thinks Eidos doesn't care, they're fooling themselves. Some of us talk to Eidos.

    But all that is irrelevant, too.
    The bottom line is that my FM has been distributed as part of a package that indirectly generates profit, and it doesn't matter what that money is used for. And all I'm asking (which Komag has graciously agreed to) is that it isn't distributed as part of this FM CD package anymore.

    That's the beginning, middle, and end of it.

  20. #20
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2000
    Location: PA, USA
    I think mag CDs are a bit different... those come with, well, a magazine. The CD is a free bonus.

    On the other hand, if you're offering FMs and cracks in return for money, that is selling the FMs. This could be very sticky legally.

    "Distribute" is pretty much a world away from sell.

  21. #21
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: House of Sand and Fog
    Originally posted by Gingerbread Man
    That's the beginning, middle, and end of it.
    I, for one, am sorry to hear that. I'm also sorry to hear you can't open your mind to the possibility that Komag is doing nothing wrong or immoral. Think of it this way: it would be one thing to have a private website and ask for 'donations' to run it. Especially when that site offers nothing or little to the public. It's an entirely different situation where the majority of traffic and bandwidth is literally leached off the webmaster by the public. In that situation (which I think Komag is very much included), when you add together the costs of yearly domain name registration, webspace and all that bandwidth (among other things) you don't come to any small number, and Komag shouldn't be blamed for asking for donations from those who's very actions cause his bills to go up in the first place!

    The bottom line is this: the CDs are not generating income on any level. And you can't say anything to that, now can you GM? No matter how much you'll say "People will only donate for the CDs" or "That's the only incentive", Komag makes it clear they are a 'bonus' for donations and that one needn't donate at all to get CDs or DVDs for free. No money is being made from it! Another non-issue! Stop being so stubborn and see this for what it is. I'm sure if this was looked at from a legal standpoint you couldn't disagree, because like it as not, the notion that money is being made from the CDs is entirely hypothetical and unproven. My apologies if this came off as a flame, I'm just pissed some people look at it this way. Eidos don't even need to be brought into this, because, as far as I can make out, Komag makes it perfectly clear these CDs aren't being 'sold' for 'donations', and I'd like to see that section of the DromEd EULA that states what he's doing is illegal, thankyouverymuch.



    deadman.
    "I cannot see anything admirable in stupidity, injustice and sheer incompetence in high places, and there is too much of all three in the present administration." -M.M.Kaye, The Far Pavilions

  22. #22
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2000
    Location: PA, USA
    It's understandable from Komag's point of view, but the fact is, he didn't make this clear to the FM authors. I'm sure he didn't think anything wrong of it... however, from a legal standpoint, it's quite murky. McDonald's got sued for their coffee being hot, for crying out loud, why would you risk going to court over something like this? Even defending yourself against total crap requires money.

    Builders have every right to be (a) offended that they did not know, and (b) worried about possible legal situations.

    It doesn't mean Komag is a bad person, or that he had wrong or sneaky intentions. It just means that there was an unfortunate miscommunication.

    Any way you slice it, though, he is generating money by offering FM CDs. That could be dodgy. People aren't asking that he remove their FMs from circulation entirely, far as I know, just from the CDs.

    It's good to ask for donations, perfectly fine, but it may not be the best idea to offer FM CDs in return for it.

  23. #23
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2000
    Location: UK
    Originally posted by Wynne
    I think mag CDs are a bit different... those come with, well, a magazine. The CD is a free bonus.
    So you are saying that Cover CDs do not generate sales? In that case, he could sell a short essay on the social rituals of south american tree frogs. With free CDs.

  24. #24
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2000
    Location: PA, USA
    Sure... if he had permission for it. Which he kinda didn't, apparently. (Not that I think he meant any harm!)

    It's a lot easier to defend when you have an actual PC magazine with all kinds of demos on it besides. I doubt many people would buy the mag if they didn't like it, just for the CD... at least, I wouldn't. Plus, ahem, no one is paying for the CD. No matter what their interest in the FMs, they pay the cost of the magazine, period. They aren't offering an unidentified amount of money for just the FMs. Some people will buy the magazine without ever touching the FMs.

    The big guys also have the bucks to legally defend themselves against crappy lawsuits. When you're a normal guy who has to pay for a lawyer... that's a lot of money down the drain. And when you're selling just the FMs and an illegal crack... no matter what you expect people to use it for, that's pretty dodgy.

    I don't believe that Komag's a bad guy at all, and I'm sure he had the best of intentions, but I can't help worrying a bit.

  25. #25
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2000
    Location: UK
    Over analysis is a bad thing, mm'kay?

    Anyway, it really does not matter if you are paying for the CD or not. The whole purpose of the CD is to get you to buy the magazine, so one way or another, they are profiting from it.

    Put it this way, it's only free if you can take the CD off of the mag and walk out of the store without paying.

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