Reply With QuoteDownloading it as we speak. I have 2k4 and I've had every 2k3 map I've tried work perfectly just throwing it in, no UED required. The screenshots look pretty cool, I'll give you my full report after playing it.
I don't know how compatible 2k3 maps are with 2k4, but I have heard that you just have to recompile them in the editor. I have no idea. I haven't done anything weird at all... the most sophisticated thing I used were assault paths (ahahaha so feeble he is)... I don't have 2k4, so this is a 2k3 map.
But, yeah. If you have 2k3 and would like to play a CTF for around 10 players*, I'd appreciate any feedback and bug hunting. There are always a couple of lurking bugs that He Who Builds The Thing never sees for some reason, and fresh eyes are always helpful. I'm considering this a beta that almost finished, but you might see what I don't.
<small>*actually, 12 seems to be a great number, although the shouting gets on my nerves after a while...</small>
Link stopped on account of only the early broken version is online right now
I HOPE YOU WILL ENJOY IT
(hrhm... for one thing I think it needs some defensive scripts around ground level... for some reason my bots aren't playing Defendo much anymore)
Downloading it as we speak. I have 2k4 and I've had every 2k3 map I've tried work perfectly just throwing it in, no UED required. The screenshots look pretty cool, I'll give you my full report after playing it.
P2P does not stand for 'permission to pilfer,' Ashcroft said
w00t
beware, there are bound to be some gheys
I have just been playing it very critically, and I have found that there is a blue spawn point (so probably the corresponding red one) that kills you. Plus I think I should put at least 6 more spawns in there, for great variety.
And I think I'm going to have to tweak the volume brushes a bit to get more accurate location IDs. And I'd still like to know why my bots aren't using the defense scripts like they were earlier. I am mad about that, because they were working great right up until I decided to zip and upload. So God only knows what I did to fuck it up, but I'll look at that tomorrow evening. Perhaps it is just that none of my Actual Play Against bots are defensively inclined.
I write it down, tomorrow I fix it. Any stupidness you find, do tell... When it is all fixed, maybe there will be a good map in it. Or at least some more learning for I.
After a bit more tweaking and critical play (also with a loooong time watching various combinations of bots play), I have decided that there are some problems I don't really know how to fix without a bit more study... So study I am.
I'm not sure the assault pathing is right. Or effective. And even though I understand the rest of Blitz' Advanced Botpathing article, the assault path thing seems to confuse me for some reason. I think something about the tagging isn't very clear, or maybe I'm just dumber than usual.
Bots seem to grab the flags no problem, but then they kinda hover around clearing the nearest baddies before making a break for it. They aren't waiting for backup, I hope... I thought I'd made sure noGroup was true on all that. Although maybe they're getting snagged by the Defense scripting, which is another part of my To Do list...
I've revolumed the thing, set stuff happily, fixed the spawns (there was even a red spawn in blue base haha I am a twit), and put a shock rifle and link gun near the central area.
There are now 20 playerstarts, which is great, and a couple of defensive script points near the front access ramps of the bases.
Right now, however, my biggest annoyance is that antiportals aren't showing in the 3d viewport, which is slowing down my occlusion efforts tremendously.
So, let's just consider the file linked above as a beta seeking feedback, and I'm addressing things as I find them.
I got a chance to load up the map. Lots of coolness. But you didn't want that. You wanted my complaints!
I spawn, I start heading towards the enemy base, and I come to this point. Huh? Where do I go? How do I get to Blue side? I think a bridge between the two sides would be nice. That point forces you to jump to the lower level
WHERE R TEH GUNZ!? I spawn, and I start running to get a gun. But I can't find any! The only thing I see is the lightning gun, which I grab, but isn't very good for close range combat. The nearest weapon is a minigun if I turn around and run backwards towards my own flag. Definitely needs more/better placed guns.
The way I play CTF with bots is I put on my headset, I yell "Everyone Defend!" and I get "Got it red leader!" Only moments later, a member of my team gets the enemy flag. Thats odd... because they all told me that they were defending. Hey why isn't there anybody defending my flag? Yes, you're right, defense is totally screwed up.
Ok, here's the astronomer-astronaut difference here. You've made maps, and I've read about making them. But... I believe that the Big Keg 'O Health is in a bad place. There's no risk in getting it! Sure there's a little water, but A. its got a really big pathway headed through it, and B. You have to pass through there anyway to get to the other side! (see my earlier comment about the required bridge) This as opposed to the narrow...outcropping?...on the side(s) of the base(s) that have something piddly like a rocket launcher on it. Really easy to fall off, all you get's an r-launcher, and there's no shield or health vials or anything! Perhaps you should put the keg on a little island that you have to double-jump to and from? Just a thought.
P2P does not stand for 'permission to pilfer,' Ashcroft said
ahaha see how dumb I am... antiportals don't show in the 3d view when you have real-time updating on...
ooo, thanks for some comment, Wuggles.
Gun placement is a bit tricky, yes. Usually I seem to put far too many weapons around, and probably there are too few on this map as a result of me consciously trying to avoid that. But I've put another link gun and another shock rifle at ground level so far, and maybe I'll put something else somewhere... I don't know yet.
The big leap area between the bases is part of the design, which is not to say that it's a GREAT idea, but it's a deliberate one... The flow of the map is meant to be very much a ground-level assault with a lot of uphill fighting. But for those with nice bulging adrenaline glands, there is a once-in-a-while opportunity to bust out the Speed combo, run like hell down your top center causeway, jump that gap completely (assuming snipers don't shove you back), run down the opposing causeway and jump that O-ring area, snatch the flag, and then the speed runs out.
A bridge between the two would make the entire ground level useless, I think. The general flow is a kind of uphill figure 8 spiral... from the center, a victory lap would go forward, up, double back, up, double back again, forward, snatch the flag, jump down, and then reverse. It's kind of like running up a helix... or at least, it's supposed to be. Lord knows if the bots use translocators they shortcut like CRAZY.
Once I figure out what has gone wrong with the defense scripting, those upper causeways will be infested with snipers again, shooting eveything in the center area... which is where the risk value of the Big Keg comes from. That and the fact that you're in a low area right in the middle of everyone.
I think your comment about the rocket bridges is spot-on, as well. It's probably a relfelction of my personal play style that led to that decision... I've noticed that a lot of UT2k3 maps tend to be "Run for the Rocket Launcher" and I like to avoid that vibe. Splash damage is a bit cheap, and at least the flak has a wide spread and limited range. Plus in a low-G environment with Certain Death on all sides, I prefer to keep it so that skill with shock combos and grenades is rewarded rather than Blazing Rocketstorm. Again, these are reflections of my preferences, and probably don't make for the best kind of map, so I'll see about tweaking that stuff.
As for what to do about the rocket bridges, I dunno. They could maybe do with something along there... minihealths, maybe?
And the bots misbehaving is my high priority right now, yeah. They used to be fine, and something happened to make them utterly ignore orders and scripts. I'm trying to figure out what I did to bollox that up.
First off, a bridge between the two bases is unnecessary, because if you're good, you can jump it. You are obviously not good.
As for my comments on the map itself. It is teh slow. Not graphics wise, but gameplay wise. Maybe all of the ONS and DM matches have tweaked my high-twitch gaming reflexes a little to much, but I run from one side to the other without hitting -anyone- on the first few difficulty levels. Speaking of which, I don't know where the hell this 'ground' thing is coming from, I didn't even touch it till I had already returned the flag once.
And a reiteration of Wuggles comment. WHERE R TEH WEAPONS. No, really. I ran the entire strech (on top mind you) from my flag to their flag without crossing a single weapon pickup, save the rather useless flak cannon when I arrived. There are spawns that have no weapons and like hell I want to search for a decent weapon when I spawn. Because when I spawn that means I died, and when I die, i get pissed and want to kill.
On that thread, the time getting in between both of the bases is excessive. Just getting from one end of your base to the other is a hassle, especially if you don't translocate like a monkey. Heaven forbid you make a run for the flag, you're running for 45 seconds before you get there. Even longer if you hit up the rocket launcher (which is rather useless in this map) on the way. And if you die like when you're almost there, you've got another bit of hauling across the entire map to find someone to kill.
And then I bumped up the number of bots to twenty something and the difficulty to one below Godlike. Impossible. So I kill the bot level again.
You get shot in the back a lot. An excessive amount. I mean, the victory lap is a cool thing and all, if only the enemy snipers weren't blasting away with a lightning gun the entire time you're trying to find a ramp up to the next level. That's ig f you can get back to your base in the first place after getting the flag. As soon as I grabbed the flag, someone spawned on the enemy flag base, grabbed the flak cannon, and capped my ass with their two second spawn protection time. Another time I was running back along the top of their base and bots kept spawning in -front- of me. I don't mind fighting my way out, but when someone is in your exit path, you kill them, then they spawn twenty feet ahead next to a minigun its a little frustrating.
There needs to be a super shield or whatever somewhere in this map. Perhaps in the middle of each base? Maybe there is and I didn't see it.
There needs to be more ways to get between levels. I managed to skip the ramps due to some creative jumping off the architecture, but it was timely and I had to stand still for a bit. Not to mention vertical jumping in low grav = instant death in most situations. And I found double-tapping on the base-part of the levels fairly difficult. The rails didn't keep me from falling, I wish they would.
All that is mostly style preferences. I play fast and such, and this map isn't suited for my type.
Now for the bugs!
The bots get the flag fine, but they seem to want to chill in the enemy base-flag area and wait to be killed. Couple of times I saw them get all jumpy going up/down ramps. Bots also get all jumpy when tehy accidently land on railings.
And perhaps the largest bug of all, if you get shot off the edge into the water and watch your body fall down to the bottom, you can see underneath every terrain piece in the map. The ocean floor needs to be moved up a few metres.
<img src="http://www.jeredhunter.com/images/invisi.png" alt =" ahahha terrain brushes" />
Yes, the center would be much more risky if there were snipers. And jer, while it is perhaps possible to jump, I wouldn't want to spend time doing it. Besides, why would I want to make the jump if there's a big keg 'o health below?
I don't really know of an example of it in 2k3, perhaps someone with both versions can help out here, but in 2k4 ONS-Icarus (not sure if it comes with the game. its really popular and most servers play it) there are these little 'boost pad' things that when you step on them they shoot you through the air in a certain direction. Perhaps one of them on either side of the big jump would be interesting?
P2P does not stand for 'permission to pilfer,' Ashcroft said
based on some things jer and I are hammering out, there are now a few more weapons in better places, the rocket launcher is more useful now, and I put a supershield generator underneath each base.
Plus I'm already working out where to place some jump pads to a) speed the flow from base to base and b) make it so you can get from the ground to the top levels in one boost.
And the bots are all fixed now, I think. They seem to be defending and sniping with alarming enthusiasm. Debug info is great.
Because if you're playing with bots that know anything, the keg-o-health isn't there.
Then we'll call Adept synonymous with retarded. The bots don't know anything in this map. They get the flag and do a dance.
P2P does not stand for 'permission to pilfer,' Ashcroft said
Well, they don't now. The retard flag-dance was really pissing me off, so that was the first thing I fixed. Right now I've just finished building some rather boffo jump pads, and I'm about to test them out.
<small>so cool jump pads</small>
With luck, I'll have a revised version with more guns, smarter bots, and jump pads for easy flow up tonight sometime. And I hope you will comment on it again if you have the inclination... These are all some damned good nitpicks and observations so far, and I think already the map is twice as good for it.
Anyone reading this since Wuggles and jer started feeding me back, plz wait for the revision if you're inclined to evaluate it... The version online right now is old and frightfully gay. New version up in a few hours.
\o/
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After a lot of AI Debug info, I've discovered that while the bots seem to be making decent use of the scripts, it's the bots with Attack orders who are defending, and Defend ordered bots run straight for the enemy flag. But then, once they've grabbed it they seem to get hooked up on the flag's defense scripts... I've checked four times, and all the flag defense points are tagged to the flag base, so that's okay. But why in God's name are my Red defensive bots defending the Blue flag base AFTER they've grabbed the flag?
It's very perplexing. I will have to check things deeper. I can only think I've forgotten something very basic and stupid.
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well fs why don't GameObjective actors come with bTeamControlled defaulting to true? BAH
Okay, this is becoming quite an adventure in AI.
I've been watching hours of AI debug information on dozens of bots from Novice to Godlike. I have checked and rechecked paths many many times, even rebuilt some of them from scratch.
And yet still the bots misbehave.
Bots with Attack orders tend to hang out in their own base, chasing down opponents who get too close, and generally defending.
Bots with Defend orders head straight to the enemy flag, take it, and then get hung up in defensive positions (generally obeying the enemy team's defense scripts) until they are killed.
Red = 0
Blue = 1
Even *I* can follow that.
Blue flag is tagged and linked to the defensive position scripts at the flag base.
The bit that's really confusing me is why Defending bots attack and Attacking bots defend. Freelancers are playing by the rules, but not the others.
Because of this, there's no revision online yet. The Bot Problem is the last thing to do at the moment.
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Okay, now no one gets hung up on opposing team defense scripts.
But still the Defend bots run for the flag, take it, and score, while the Attack bots hover around their base and pick off baddies.
Most perplexing.
This is confusing me too, and my head feels like it was screwed on backwards this morning.So...Have you checked out this? Seems like they know their botpathing stuff.Ah, you did.
Also, in UED, Tools -> Review paths didn't seem too optimistic about the network.
ps Whhhhy oh why is there a sunlight actor a few feet off the terrain? It's disturbing me more than the bots
Hmm, just recalled something. In the old engine, typing "flush" into the UED console, hitting enter and then rebuilding the paths would solve a whole multitude of problems. But that may be clutching at straws.
heheheh
You are looking at the BROKE version... I rebuilt the network completely.
The sun is on the ground probably because I usually have stuff like that hidden and forgot that's where it is. SO DISTURBING that I will KEEP it there muahaha... you will be BURNED.
Erm.
Yeah, I've crawled everywhere imaginable for hints as to this weird behaviour by the bots, from Fordy to UDN to Buzz to Wiki to everywhere... I have hit every link in my bookmarks, every promising-sounding link from THOSE pages, and searched every forum I can find... nothing.
The version I'm currently working with, which I can put up if you want to have a look, seems absolutely fine with the exception of the utter reversal of orders. Freelancers do as they are supposed to, and if the defenders tried to steal their own flags then maybe I could see it being a simple case of muddled tags or team IDs... But no. Blue defenders head for the red flag, and I watch them in AI debug... Path network lights up straight for it. Blue attackers stay on and around blue base, and even make use of the blue base's defensive script placement and sniper stuff.
The ONLY thing I can think is that maybe Epic screwed up and DefenderTeamIndex stuff is reversed for some reason, but that would make the blue bots defend the red flag, I'd expect. Not stael it and run giggling home with it.
I continue my frowning at it, but I will try a purge just to see if it shakes anything loose. I'm all about clutching at straws at this point.
Well, here's the current revision:
ChillB
Ocean floor fixed, botpathing tweaked, some more weapon / health / shield placements, assault paths tweaked properly, jump pads added, more playerstarts.
If anyone can figure out why Defending AI attack and Attacking AI defend, I'd appreciate the help... Run it in spectator mode with showai on, you'll see what I mean.
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Hrhmph.
Well, I don't know...
AI debug says they're defending. Even if I suicide and give orders from the scoreboard, THAT says they're defending as well... and while the bots' locations are generally in places where I would expect defenders to lurk, one of them still manages to steal the opposing flag, and the baddies routinely waltz in and take mine.
If I order them all to attack, they seem to hang around home (while debug and scoreboard say they are attacking), if I order them to defend, they seem to go for the flag (while debug and scoreboard say they are defending)
And now sometimes a baddiebot will steal my flag then crouch and hang out for a bit sniping before running off... Which MAY just be him securing an escape route (ahahaha fingers crossed) or it may be that he's hung up on the base's USS spots. Which would mean Red bots think they are defending the blue flag (which doesn't explain why they end up running away with it and scoring), even though DefenderTeam indices are set properly (and I have checked that so many times my eyes are bleeding)
Well, I ended up deleting and rebuilding the entire AI network. Nodes, JumpDests, USS markers, flags, Assault Paths. And nothing changed. Left alone, some defend and some attack and some freelance. Tell them to attack, and they all defend (while they and AI debug claims they are attacking). Tell them to defend and they all attack, contrary to what debug tells me.
No other maps do this, and I even built a small and simple CTF in the meantime just in case something utterly bizarre had gone on with the base code that was making the engine interpret Defend as "go take their flag"
Nice! I didn't realize ye made UT maps GBM.Guess it's cus i never visit these forums!
I'd love to check out your maps but i only have the full version of the first UT.
Were ye creating maps with the first game too? Guess you'll have a head start for Thief: DS ye sly taffer!
WAHT GAY!
Dont have UT but... it's... sorta... MDK-ish!
My goodness! You've actually released some work for once
Might get time to try it out later.
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