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Thread: Doom 3 Thief Mod? Thievery D3?

  1. #1
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2004
    Location: Back Home

    Doom 3 Thief Mod? Thievery D3?

    Howsabout it fellas?

    Anyone willing to help me, or is anyone currently planning, a Thief-mod or TC for Doom 3. The engine has it all there - dynamic lighting, perfect shadows.

    Just would need some coding, and a lot of mapping. I'm thinking multiplayer mostly, but singleplayer would need an awful lot more coding, particularly AI-wise.

    But MP could be a starting point, so has anyone any ideas?

    May even start the damn project meself...just wanted to hear some impressions such as 'I'd never play that', or 'Yes, go ahead, just what we wanted'.

    So go ahead.

  2. #2
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2002
    Location: Edmonton
    I would play it for sure. Unfortuantely I have no skills to contribute.

  3. #3
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2004
    Location: Prince Edward Island, Canada
    I would play it, but I can't help you. I'm working on my own Thief 2 fan mission as we speak, it's called "Enchanted Evening at St. Dunstan's."

  4. #4
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2004
    Location: Back Home
    Ah well, keep the ideas coming. This isn't going to get anywhere just yet, if it ever does, under my command.

    I'd welcome this project & love to be a part of it, but perhaps someone else wants to foot the project management, or at least co-lead with me.

    And we need to get Doom 3 talent as well. The learning curve of a new engine could be large, but fortunately I think it would be fairly easy for anyone accustomed to Q3 mapping, as you can quite freely convert the geometry I believe. Just normal BSP/CSG stuff, with extra vertex & patch goodness.

    Less of a need for static meshes than Unreal, methinks, but new models would be a must.

    EDIT: I've just stumbled into Doom 3 mapping with my first simple room. It's easy, and much more user-friendly in many ways than DromEd, of course. Plus, there is no lightmap compilation time - the map takes miliseconds to compile as all the lights are calculated realtime in the engine. Beat that, Half Life 2!

    So maybe you will see more of this crazy talk from me.
    Last edited by Fingernail; 17th Aug 2004 at 15:52.

  5. #5
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    Do you have any programming skills? It won't be an easy venture to convert Thief style gameplay into the D3 engine.

    Do what Blackcat did with UT and Thievery. First, try and get a functional lightgem into the game. It's relatively simple to do, and it'll allow you to come to grips with the SDK. From there see what else you can implement and maybe the mod will take off.

  6. #6
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2004
    Location: Back Home
    hey hey hey, it's bloody early crazy talk yet.

    No, I have no programming skills. Thus I say: some community help would be needed.

    I also have (or rather will have) little time on my hands next month onwards. However, gamplay, mapping (I'm improving every minute - curved surfaces now!), SFX, music, this I can do.

    The ideal would be a small team compromising a talented artist and programmer, at least one of each, and some more mappers.

    But it's not likely to get going for a while.

  7. #7
    Southquarter.com/fms
    Registered: Apr 2000
    Location: The Akkala Highlands
    I know zero about programming, but what would it take to get some of the Thief type elements into D3, things like objectives, briefings, dousing torches, etc? Is this stuff even possible without access to the source code?

  8. #8
    Member
    Registered: May 2001
    Location: New Zealand

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Renault
    Is this stuff even possible without access to the source code?
    No.
    First, try and get a functional lightgem into the game. It's relatively simple to do, and it'll allow you to come to grips with the SDK.
    I can't see that being possible at all. There are no compiled light-maps to refer to. But then, there's not really a need for one, since the light is completely accurate. If you stand in a doorway, you'll be visible. If you stand in a lightless corner, you won't.

    In fact a Thievery-type mod would be even better with the Doom 3 engine. I've actually been putting together some ideas for this but it's unlikely I'll actaully do anything with it. Especially when you consider I've got another 5 mods/games that have been in planning for about 4 years now. Bah. Need time to make mods.

  9. #9
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2002
    Location: Edmonton
    Maybe you wouldn't need a light-gem... the dark is pitch, and it'd be kinda cool to have that little bit of uncertainty. Since the characters are affected by shadows as well, I think it'd be more interesting without the gem. The game would be pretty tense that way.

  10. #10
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2001
    Location: Finland
    Two words: Body awareness.

    Anyways, if you want AI to see/not see you, you need to know how lit a player is. And if you know how lit a player is, you might as well slap a lightgem in to show it.

    And how do you know how lit a player is? Well, just trace a line from the light to the player, if nothing collides with the trace, it's just maths after that.

  11. #11
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    Most of what Renault brought could be done without the source code, Hemebond, but a good portion of them would require an SDK to implement. The source code itself only deals with the nuts and bolts of the engine, everything else could be modded into the game with a bit of time and talent.

    Like dousable torches for instance...they could easily be added into the game without even going beyond the editor. Light sources in Doom 3 can be shot out, all you have to do is add damage parimeters to the light entity and you're set. The real trick would be making them dousable only using water arrows.

    But even if a Thievery style mod for Doom 3 doesn't take off, you could still make an excellent and deep survival horror game with the engine using the assets already available.

  12. #12
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2002
    Location: Edmonton
    Quote Originally Posted by Deep Qantas
    Two words: Body awareness.

    Anyways, if you want AI to see/not see you, you need to know how lit a player is. And if you know how lit a player is, you might as well slap a lightgem in to show it.

    And how do you know how lit a player is? Well, just trace a line from the light to the player, if nothing collides with the trace, it's just maths after that.
    I just think it'd be more interesting without one - at least when your opponents are real people.

  13. #13
    Still Subjective
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Idiocy will never die
    Why? Realism? It would be unrealistic, even with body awareness. Don't need to look down to know I am in the pitch black. Bring on the lightgems.

    It's real shame that the Unreal engine v3 isn't going to be out for ages as there are so many UEd skilled modders and mappers. Doom3 and HL2 means learning yet another engine/editor. But a Doom 3 Thief mod would be nice. Would we be allowed though? I find it odd that some mods have copyrighted elements in them (Troopers) and others (like the SS2 Doom3 project) get the smackdown from the IP owners.

  14. #14
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    That's because George Lucas is really lax about IP issues. Anyone can do anything with the Star Wars universe as long as they don't make a profit off of it...unless they've licensed the property, of course.

  15. #15
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    I have some 3d-modelling and texture creation skills, although if you just say "make me a character" like that, you're not going to get anything good.

    I would need something to work on, such as a base image, or drawing, or something similar, but if I had such (preferrably a drawing, with side, front, top, back, etc. views), I'm pretty sure I could come up with what you want.

  16. #16
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2002
    Location: Edmonton
    Quote Originally Posted by Subjective Effect
    Why? Realism? It would be unrealistic, even with body awareness. Don't need to look down to know I am in the pitch black. Bring on the lightgems.
    Not realism, just the added intensity of uncertanity. With AI, it might not work since their behaviour is predictable. But with real people, you never know if the person is looking close enough to actually see you, or isn't paying attention - and then if they spot you, the amount of chase they'll give is unpredictable. So the lack of lightgem would fit in with the whole idea of playing with human opponents. It gets too easy with a lightgem ("hey the gem's black, I'm safe") I think it'd be alot more fun if you were always on your toes - this would go double for experienced Thief-players. In Thief, a lightgem is necessary since there are so many different levels of light. In Doom, it seems like you've got bright and and you've got pitch black, so it wouldn't be a huge issue.

  17. #17
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2004
    Location: Back Home
    Right, before anyone gets confused:

    The plan (as it is, if there is one) will be (if I can find enough talented folk):

    Just a Multiplayer Mod. At first. So no AI, Objectives, anything like that at this stage.

    All (what a light word considering the amount of work required), that would be needed would be:

    New Models of players & weapons,
    New textures (this includes normal/specular maps),
    New sounds,
    Lightgem (there must be a way with the coming-SDK and the scripting language, we'll see),
    New MP config requiring the SDK (which is about a week away last I heard),
    Levels, and beaucoup, but maybe only a couple at first.

    And don't be confused - DoomEdit is essentially the same as the Q3Radiant for Quake Three. But it has a better renderer in the engine and no lightmaps necessary. So there will be a lot of talent, just not associated with ttlg particularly.

    And as for design decisions on a lightgem, body awareness, etc, the shadows are currently pitch black in Doom 3, which could be an advantage gameplay wise as neither guards team nor thieves would have the advantage of being able to see clearly in the shadows. However, a lightgem is probably preferable, but in the end, you know when you're in shade or not.

    Hell, the multiplayer out-of-the-box is pretty sneaky, I managed to hide in shadows effectively and then jump out, when an enemy was in pursuit.

    EDIT: Oh yeah, the copyright thing. Well, the precedent in Thievery UT, but aside from that, we could be pretty sneaky and call it something like 'Silent Shadows' or, and I like this one the most: 'Robbery!' /sarcasm.

    Seriously, though, we could find a name that doesn't infringe too much, and do as Thievery did and remove traces of the Thief universe. It can still be steampunk obviously, still have crazy religious orders, still have magic, whatever, but no Hammerites, Pagans, Garrett, the City (although that name really can't be copyright, can it?). We'll just have the Church, the Forrest-dwellers and the city with a non-capital C, or some such baloney. Anyway, this is Eidos, not EA we're dealing with, and they have bigger things to worry about, such as possible takeover.
    Last edited by Fingernail; 18th Aug 2004 at 05:29.

  18. #18
    Member
    Registered: May 2002
    Location: Between dreams and shadows...
    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Renault
    Is this stuff even possible without access to the source code?
    No, but ID always release the code you need to modify many aspects of the game - including AI - as a free download some time after the game is released. For doom 3 this release should be "in a few weeks" apparently. Going off my experience of ID code in the past it'll generally be well designed and easy enough to pick up for anyone with C++ experience (previous engines were done in C, Doom 3 uses C++.) (note: please don't take this as me volunteering, while I'd like to help I just don't have the free time.)

    Oh, and I believe that there's already some code in there for AI/Light interaction (the zombies can be alerted by the flashlight at least) so there may already be stuff in there to reduce player visibility in shadows.

  19. #19
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Location: Toronto, Canada
    You could avoid copyright issues fairly easily, I think. Eidos isn't going to go after anything that isn't blatantly infringing on copyright, since they barely exist at the moment.

    "The City" cannot be copyrighted, so the setting could be the same. Even names like "Old Quarter" and "Stonemarket" could be used, since they exist in tons of real cities.

    I doubt you could use Garrett, but there isn't much point in MP anyway.

    "Pagans" could still be used. "Hammerites" is out, but they could be called, "The Church" or "The Builders". Remove the hammer symbol and replace it with a gear. They could call their god the "Master Crafter" instead.

    I don't know if there is any call for "Keepers" in MP, but if so you could always call them "The Watchers".

    Other than the hammer symbol and perhaps some of the glyphs, there are few symbols or images that could not be used. The city could look the same as TDS (hopefully with the funky lights returned). The people could be dressed almost the same. Pagans and "Watchers" could look the same.

    As for a title, what about, "Master Thieves", since there will be more than one? Or "Dark Shadows"?

  20. #20
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2004
    Location: Prince Edward Island, Canada
    Wow, times like this really make me wish I could code in C++ or do anything half technical. Damn. This is exciting stuff. Damn all this copyright nonsense...this isn't for profit. Call it..."This is really NOT a Thief Mod".

  21. #21
    Southquarter.com/fms
    Registered: Apr 2000
    Location: The Akkala Highlands
    Quote Originally Posted by Fingernail
    Right, before anyone gets confused:
    Just a Multiplayer Mod. At first. So no AI, Objectives, anything like that at this stage.
    New Models of players & weapons,
    New textures (this includes normal/specular maps),
    New sounds,
    Lightgem (there must be a way with the coming-SDK and the scripting language, we'll see),
    New MP config requiring the SDK (which is about a week away last I heard),
    Levels, and beaucoup, but maybe only a couple at first.
    Why not just shoot for SP from the start? Thievery was popular, but the FMs are far more so, and you could probably get more community help if that is your goal. IMO, we really need to convert a somewhat modern engine to Thief style play to keep future FM and campaigns alive and kicking.

    Last night I was comparing the Olde Quarter from TDP to the Olde Quarter from TDS for a FM I'm doing, the difference the engines was sickening. Even with people ripping the graphics in TDS, the comparison is beyond night and day. We need an upgrade.

  22. #22
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2004
    I actually think the Doom3 engine would be painfully bad for Thief stuff. You don't cast a shadow. The lighting is fixed, no body awareness, no shadows from yourself, AI consist of "a trigger has been activated...ATTACK!!" Flashlights that has a beam of fixed size is not dynamic lighting. About the only thing I'd like would be the sprint when in a jam. If you doin't like the Thief textures, John P.'s textures will most assuredly change your mind. There is more that some "fine tweaks" to tune that engine up for Thief.

  23. #23
    Member
    Registered: May 2002
    Location: Between dreams and shadows...
    Quote Originally Posted by vunk
    The lighting is fixed,
    Ummm. No, it isn't. In fact every light is calculated on the fly at runtime, there's no lightmap precalculation in the build process. The quality of the shadowing is affected by the graphics quality level but the lighting is dynamic. Hit suspended lights properly and the light swings (hit it wrong and you destroy the light), shadows move, the enemies cast shadows, you can even cast shadows of pipes, ladders, obstructions and walls from the flashlight. Try playing it on high quality rather than medium or low.

    Quote Originally Posted by vunk
    AI consist of "a trigger has been activated...ATTACK!!"
    So? Any TC would need the AI rewriting anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by vunk
    Flashlights that has a beam of fixed size is not dynamic lighting.
    Dynamic lighting is where a light is moved around the scene dynamically. Like a flashlight. Static lighting is where the lighting is fixed at build time. Any changes to the lighting after build are dynamic.

    Quote Originally Posted by vunk
    If you doin't like the Thief textures, John P.'s textures will most assuredly change your mind. There is more that some "fine tweaks" to tune that engine up for Thief.
    This has just slightly more point to it than textures: actually allowing us to make levels, you know those things we can't make for Thief DS? There's only so much the Thief engines can do, we have no SDK for TDS and the likelihood of one appearing gets smaller by the day. Alternatives are needed.
    Last edited by The Watcher; 18th Aug 2004 at 15:01.

  24. #24
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2004
    Location: Prince Edward Island, Canada
    Quote Originally Posted by vunk
    I actually think the Doom3 engine would be painfully bad for Thief stuff. You don't cast a shadow.
    Yup, you can cast a shadow...it's just turned off by default. Search for some of the doom tweak pages and you'll find out how to turn it on. Looks not too bad, but it's kind of strange to have it without body awareness. All the same, it's there.

  25. #25
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2004
    Location: Prince Edward Island, Canada
    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Renault
    Why not just shoot for SP from the start? Thievery was popular, but the FMs are far more so, and you could probably get more community help if that is your goal. IMO, we really need to convert a somewhat modern engine to Thief style play to keep future FM and campaigns alive and kicking.

    Last night I was comparing the Olde Quarter from TDP to the Olde Quarter from TDS for a FM I'm doing, the difference the engines was sickening. Even with people ripping the graphics in TDS, the comparison is beyond night and day. We need an upgrade.
    I am in agreement. It would be a lot more work to make a Thief Single Player mod, but I think it is needed. And Screw the suits and their copyright nonsense. If they don't want to do the work for us...then leave us along to have some fun. It's not going to cost them anything.

    Maybe, since there is a want for multiplayer and singleplayer....we could call this version, Thievery SP?

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