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Thread: The Thief-like mod Doom 3 Draft Design Document, for comment and analysis.

  1. #1
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2004
    Location: Back Home

    The Thief-like mod Doom 3 Draft Design Document, for comment and analysis.

    Thievery Doom 3 (for want of a better title) Draft Design Document

    Section 1: The Aim

    The aim of this mod/TC, is to manipulate the Doom 3 engine into a ‘replica’ of Thief 3, Deadly Shadows. We will change the gameplay, AI, graphics, HUD and weapon set to fit our best view of the Thief Universe as designed by Looking Glass Studios. We will, however, strive to make no reference to any intellectual property of Eidos as part of the Thief Franchise.

    Section 2: The Gameplay changes

    A thief-like character (who will be inspired by Garrett from the Thief Series), does not move like the Doom Marine. We need to implement body awareness, and a slightly new set of moves and speeds, including mantling.

    The Doom 3 Engine is not built for stealth as such, but it is all there – the lighting, the moody environments, objectives even. We need some way of letting the player know how much shadow he/her has got themselves into. This was done effectively using a ‘light-gem’ in all three commercial Thief games, and we will offer a similar light-displaying feature in the HUD. This will probably be a job for a coder when the SDK arrives, but should be fairly easy to implement.

    Obviously AI has an effect on gameplay, but I’m going to deal with that next.

    Section 3: AI

    The AI in Thief games is rich, complex and exciting to watch from a dark corner. We believe it has set a standard for AI in stealth titles, and wish to emulate it, or even raise the bar a notch.

    The AI in Doom can already be set to patrol. They can be in a state of non alert, and a state of alert. But this is not enough. We need more states of awareness, with searching protocol built it.

    The Doom 3 AI (or at least what we have seen of it), reacts in slightly the wrong way. It fights to the death, which most guards don’t do in the Thief games. When close to death, or even suspicious, they run and get help from other guards. This kind of interaction between AI is yet to be seen in the Doom 3 Engine, and should be built in.

    Swordfighting will probably be a major change, and the guards must have their alertness level raised when lights are extinguished.

    We should also aim for civilian ‘scared only’ AI.

    Section 4: Graphics

    We need a completely new texture set. The Doom 3 textures are all Sci-fi and fine, but there are not Steampunk, except for some of the weird machinery which might fit in. We need bricks, wood, tiles, grass, windows, beams, ceilings, plaster, wallpaper, all beautifully painted and normal/specular mapped.

    We also need totally new objects. Guards are not Imps, zombies, flying heads. They are humans, often armoured, and armed with swords. Getting a working bow and arrow system is imperative, and should be great with Doom3’s lovely physics engine. We may even see rope arrows, or a grappling hook ingame.

    However, we also need little ‘incidental’ objects, such as torches, candles, loot, books. Torches should be easy to make – many lights in Doom 3 can already be shot out.


    The Aim of Phase 1:

    To make a start on all of these sections, probably completing Section 2, and getting someway in Section 4. Section 3 will be harder and more time consuming, but an alertness system with levels of alertness should be a first aim.

    Let discussion/critique ensue!
    And then onto Phase 1.
    Last edited by Fingernail; 19th Aug 2004 at 10:40. Reason: Blackcat games unhappy :(

  2. #2
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2004
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    To get this done, we need:

    Coders, proficient in C++ and willing to learn DoomScript.
    Artists, both 2 and 3D, with knowledge of high-poly to low-poly and bumpmapping techniques, specular maps etc. Also Concept artists.

    We'll need more people later.

  3. #3
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2004
    Location: Back Home
    UPDATE: I'm hearing some real positive support type things on the modding forums at www.Doom3World.org . Looks like there'll be some support from that end, as fans of Thief start crawling out of the woodwork.

  4. #4
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    I have tons and tons of textures (about 400 megs worth) I can dedicate to the project. I might even try my hand at making bumpmaps and see what I can do with them in a map if I get the time.

    The Blade textures in particular would work perfectly with some of the grungier and more medieval Thief settings.

    Example 1
    Example 2

    I've been holding on to these textures for years now, and have yet to ever use em in a project beyond a few goof-arounds with the Vampire editor. And the best part...they're free. The artist threw em up on his website after the game they were designed for went under. I'll try and see if I can track down the URL for em later.

    Edit: After doing a search they look like they could be from Blade of Darkness, from the screenshots they do look similar. Thing is, I remember grabbing all these textures off a webpage about 3 or 4 years ago piece by piece (and all in seperate catagories) in the exact format they're in now. Kind of a small mystery here...
    Last edited by Renzatic; 19th Aug 2004 at 07:18.

  5. #5
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2004
    Location: Back Home
    Looks great. Bumpmapping is pretty much a requirement in Doom 3, not just a little feature like in Thief 3. It is the staple of making a scene look detailed, and specular maps can make little shiny bits too.

    It is surprisingly boxy and low-poly, the textures add most of the detail.

  6. #6
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2004
    Location: Prince Edward Island, Canada
    Maybe we could call it...Thievery: Doomed. Take that as you wish...Doomed...or Doom-Ed. *L*

  7. #7
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2003
    Location: Sweden
    All I can do is to wish you all good luck..

    So, good luck mates!



    Cheers,
    -Johan

  8. #8
    ThieveryUT
    Member

    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Berlin

    Uh, not wanting to rain on your parade, but you might not want to call it Thievery.

  9. #9
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: UK
    So it's settled then:

    Thief: The Doomed Project

  10. #10
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2000
    Location: up north
    I vote Robbery.

  11. #11
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2004
    Location: Back Home
    Doomed Project...heheheh.

    Robbery sounds a bit rubbish, to be utterly frank. So we can't use the name Thievery, then? *mutters something about community spirit*.

    Doom3: Burglement.
    Pilfering Doom 3
    Larcener
    Stealer is too clumsy.

    what about something on a different tack, like Rogue, or Gentleman Adventurer or something. Street Urchin sounds good to me.

    Guards and Thieves? Thieves and Guards?

    The name isn't really important right now (he decides after agonising over alternatives). What we need is gameplay changes atm. Which means we need the SDK (when it is released soon).

    I'm gonna get a forum going, unless someone very kindly wants to arrange a ttlg forum for this community-based, community-minded open project.

    Oh, and we're not looking to compete with Thievery UT here Orgy. So unless you have designs on a similar Doom 3 engine mod, you needn't worry.

    EDIT: The Simple, Basic & Empty Forum is at doomthief.conforums3.com
    Last edited by Fingernail; 19th Aug 2004 at 10:29.

  12. #12
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Location: location, location!
    Sorry to harp on about the name, (it's all I will be able to contribute unless you want a soundtrack).

    Hmmmm, Kleptomania anyone? Failing that have a look at the link below for Dictionary.com's thesuarus search results for the word Thief

    http://thesaurus.reference.com/search?q=thief

    Weasel
    Last edited by Sneaky Weasel; 19th Aug 2004 at 10:42.

  13. #13
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2004
    Location: Back Home
    Sounds quite good actually. Maybe Kleptomaniac.

  14. #14
    Southquarter.com/fms
    Registered: Apr 2000
    Location: The Akkala Highlands
    Quote Originally Posted by Sneaky Weasel
    Failing that have a look at the link below for Dictionary.com's thesuarus search results for the word Thief
    Funny, I just did that. Didn't see much that excited me. The only ones stood out to me were "Heist" or "Looter" or "Sneak." Pilferage maybe, but that sounds bit goofy. "Rogue" seems like it's been used too much in the past. Same with "Trespasser." "Prowler" was ok, but that has too evil of a conotation. Same with "infliltrator." "Midnighter" is interesting, but a bit odd sounding.

    Some of the amusing ones: second-story man, porch climber, gate-crasher, sandbagger, and buttinsky.

    Also, I don't think the name "thievery" should be used, with or without permission. This is a entirely seperate project, you don't want to confuse people.

  15. #15
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2004
    Location: Back Home
    True, true. Now go and register on the boards at doomthief.conforums3.com!

    This isn't some kooky expansion pack, this is something that people here want to see done, for the sake of the continuation of FMs in a new and modern engine. For the benefit of everyone, please help us!

  16. #16
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2000
    Location: up north
    Quote Originally Posted by Fingernail
    Robbery sounds a bit rubbish, to be utterly frank.
    But.. But.. Thievery -> Robbery, it's FUNNEY! Okey, "Stealery" then.

  17. #17
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2004
    Location: Back Home
    Like I said, Pilferage.

  18. #18
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    I'd go for...

    "The Midnight Robber Which Robs At Midnight."

    or...

    "Theivery Swarm"

    Or even...

    "Nightblade"

  19. #19
    Member
    Registered: May 2001
    Location: .nl
    Just call it Thief 3.

    There isn't a game called Thief 3 yet. So.....

  20. #20
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2002
    Location: Germany
    Quote Originally Posted by Fingernail
    To get this done, we need:

    Coders, proficient in C++ and willing to learn DoomScript.
    Artists, both 2 and 3D, with knowledge of high-poly to low-poly and bumpmapping techniques, specular maps etc. Also Concept artists.

    We'll need more people later.
    C++ is the smallest problem. The biger problem for me is that I never modded such a thing.

  21. #21
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2002
    Location: Germany
    Quote Originally Posted by Fingernail
    Thievery Doom 3 (for want of a better title) Draft Design Document

    Section 2: The Gameplay changes

    A thief-like character (who will be inspired by Garrett from the Thief Series), does not move like the Doom Marine. We need to implement body awareness, and a slightly new set of moves and speeds, including mantling.
    Why do we need body awareness? BA is a thing that's isn't required to create a Thief game. We should settle for goals which are absolutely neccessary to get the thing going. Sneaking is important so this would mean a third mode of walking is essential. Whats even more is sound propagation. How strong is that in Doom 3? Sound propagation is THE CORE of Thief as everythinb else revolves around it. A stealth game is only a stealth game because the sound makes it so. To get the alertness of the AI you need that in place already.

    The Doom 3 Engine is not built for stealth as such, but it is all there – the lighting, the moody environments, objectives even. We need some way of letting the player know how much shadow he/her has got themselves into.
    I think the lightgem is probably one of the easier things to do. The nice thing about it is that it is totally independent of everything else. You just have to calculate the amount of light the player receives. This means that this can be implemented in D3 for D3 playing purposes as well, which makes it a good test because other players also could benefit from it.

    Section 3: AI

    The AI in Thief games is rich, complex and exciting to watch from a dark corner. We believe it has set a standard for AI in stealth titles, and wish to emulate it, or even raise the bar a notch.
    For a first version the AI of D3 is sufficient. They will only need a search algorithm.

    The Doom 3 AI (or at least what we have seen of it), reacts in slightly the wrong way. It fights to the death, which most guards don’t do in the Thief games.
    This is probably quite easy to fix.

    When close to death, or even suspicious, they run and get help from other guards. This kind of interaction between AI is yet to be seen in the Doom 3 Engine, and should be built in.
    If soundpropagation works well enough this can already be used for getting help.

    Swordfighting will probably be a major change, and the guards must have their alertness level raised when lights are extinguished.
    Yes.

    We may even see rope arrows, or a grappling hook ingame.
    That would be really nice.

    However, we also need little ‘incidental’ objects, such as torches, candles, loot, books. Torches should be easy to make – many lights in Doom 3 can already be shot out.
    And edible food. It adds to the atmosphere because it makes the world more interactive.

  22. #22
    Southquarter.com/fms
    Registered: Apr 2000
    Location: The Akkala Highlands
    Quote Originally Posted by sparhawk
    And edible food. It adds to the atmosphere because it makes the world more interactive.
    And it makes the mod more like the original Thief. Which brings up a point, since body awareness was mentioned. Is the goal here to make this mod more like a) the original thief games, or b) the new thief game, or c) a mixture of both?

    My personal preference is for a), but others may feel different.

  23. #23
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2002
    Location: Germany
    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Renault
    And it makes the mod more like the original Thief. Which brings up a point, since body awareness was mentioned. Is the goal here to make this mod more like a) the original thief games, or b) the new thief game, or c) a mixture of both?

    My personal preference is for a), but others may feel different.
    I also would rather go for a) above everything else. That doesn't mean that things like body awareness should not be implemented, but they are not the top priority.

  24. #24
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    I believe the most important step would be getting a functional lightgem ingame. The very basics of Thief's gameplay revolve around shadowplay, and once you get that in the game everything else would flow outwards from there.

  25. #25
    Member
    Registered: May 2001
    Location: .nl
    If this goes through it would be great if it would run on Linux! =D

    I'll gladly be the linux guinea pig (read: tester).

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