Improving some low-quality original objects?

[R Soul]

If FM players install update packs, then updated things will almost certainly look good, but will they look right?

Consider Vigil's wall lamp texture:

Okay the original wasn't great in there either, but at least it didn't look conspicuously grimey.
Now Vigil's texture looks good, but it has no place inside an opulent mansion.

That's why, when I update original objects, I don't change the style.

[Targa]

Oh, I didn't say you can't desire to have your mission look a certain way. And I can certainly understand the point of view of an FM author who designs a mission "just so". My point is that you have no control over what a player does or doesn't do. Unless of course you convince people not to release custom objects/AI to the public. Regardless of what an author wants their mission to look like, once it's realeased to the public and a player gets it on their computer, like it or not, they can change objects, textures, heck...they can even load your mission into Dromed and change everything to the way they want it.

[R Soul]

My point is that there will be very few problems if updated objects are as close to 'higher detail versions of the originals' as possible.

[TF]

That's a good course of action, but not such a good example, that electrical lamp doesn't belong in a victorian mansion to begin with, Vigil's or not, there's plenty of victorian lights you're supposed to use.

[Lady Rowena]

Oh, I didn't say you can't desire to have your mission look a certain way. And I can certainly understand the point of view of an FM author who designs a mission "just so". My point is that you have no control over what a player does or doesn't do. Unless of course you convince people not to release custom objects/AI to the public. Regardless of what an author wants their mission to look like, once it's realeased to the public and a player gets it on their computer, like it or not, they can change objects, textures, heck...they can even load your mission into Dromed and change everything to the way they want it.

Before being an author I was, I am a player and as a player I like to play a mission just as it was meant to look by its author. I can't speak for others, but I hope they feel the same.

And...well usually the players don't have the bad habit open FM's just to change objects and textures, maybe sometimes they do it in order to find a hidden switch.

[Vigil]

Wow, this sure opened up a can of worms!

Since I have my own skins and model replacements installed all the time for testing, I see them whether the FM author likes it or not; so I've grown used to seeing them so much that when I play T1, or play a mission that uses tweaked versions of the original textures, I'm struck by how 'out of place' all the original objects look What I'm saying is it all comes down to what you're used to, I don't think it's objectively an "inappropriate-for-my-FM" issue.

Vigil: I was going to include your 'sea chest' model, but I see now that it's not a drop-in replacement, mainly because the original object is off-centre for some reason, and also because it's not quite the same size. I know the model names are different to stop it overriding the original, but you could consider tweaking it a little to make them interchangable.

Unfortunately it's not as simple as that; because it has a different lock from the original, my seachest also uses a different joint setup (one matching the regular footlocker-chest), and so it could never be a drop-in replacement without changing the gamesys or entirely changing how the lock works. And I doubt anyone would want that hideous padlock thing back

[Targa]

You can't ask me to play and not allow me to use my own custom AI's!

[Lady Rowena]

Vigil, of course you can do whatever you want on your computer. But if we are talking about releasing an enchanchement pack to the public then I agree with R Soul: you should preserve the style of the original object.
An example: the small barrels. I like the new ones, but they only fit in a old basement or storage. If I use them as I have seen in many FM's, here's is the result. New barrels:



Old barrels:



If you ask me I prefer the old ones. (with the new improved shape, of course)

Your new footlocker: I like it, it's already in my mission, but I don't like the fact that also the lockboxes's textures will be replaced. They are perfect for the footlocker, but in my opinion they are too shiny for the lock box. I like the old rusty look of the originals.

I hope to not be misundersood, I really appreciate all the effort of NV, I love most of his and your objects.

[Lady Rowena]

You can't ask me to play and not allow me to use my own custom AI's!

No, you can't!

You can't keep that lady just for you.....please, may I get her?

[Speesh]

Nice textures in that barrel room.

[Nameless Voice]

What about if I have my own replacements for some objects? Just to make an example: I made a new texture for the fancy bed, will the EP override it if it has the same name?

No, not unless you put your texture into Txt instead of Txt16. (Txt16 always overrides Txt.) DarkLoader or GarrettLoader will always use the ones from the FM first and foremost.

What am I to do if I don't like some objects of the EP to prevent the replacement? I know, they are beautiful, but there are some that I don't like.

Include a copy of the original LGS model, I guess.


Honestly, I don't know what to do about the problem of people who don't want to have their missions use the enhanced objects. I could release it as a DromEd-only pack, but bear in mind that there'll always be at least one person (me!) who will see your FM as it would look with the pack installed anyway...

[Eshaktaar]

Well, I don't think that bothers anybody if individuals tweak their Thief installation with upgraded stuff. Others might have created their own health shields, or replaced the Hammerite/Mechanist spell attack swoosh with Ryu's HADOKEN! attack sound from Street Fighter
That's perfectly fine by me, as they did those changes consciously and know that it's possible some things might look odd because of their tweaks.

However, if the pack gets released for the public, I predict a large percentage of players will download and install it. Now we are facing two problems:

Quite a few already released FMs that contain custom stuff will have graphical glitches (wrong UV mappings on objects, custom textures that don't show up because the upgraded object uses different ones) that can't be prevented for reasons that have already been mentioned. I can't speak for others of course, but I wouldn't be all that happy to know that parts of my mission(s) suddenly might look screwed for the majority of players.

Problem two: Any FMs that are in progress need to be tested with the upgrade pack if the author wants to make really sure everything looks alright (meant in the technical sense, not if one likes certain improved objects or not). I have a lot of custom objects that use Thief's standard textures, for example. Since it's not guaranteed that upgraded textures which override their old counterparts are exact replacements, I have to include all the standard textures I'm using. But that's not enough: Some of the upgraded objects might have different UV mappings, and the old textures (which are now in the zip and will override those from the upgrade pack) would look wrong on them, thus I have to include the old objects as well. Making this additional work necessary is suboptimal, IMO.

[Nameless Voice]

Okay, the latest demo version can be grabbed here (thanks to Epithumia). The file is around 8MB and has most of the models made by other people on this thread as well as my own. I didn't include the demo mission this time, so you'll have to test it ingame. I recommend the OMs.

Points of note:
I spotted a bug in the Armoire model after uploading the pack, I'm not going to reupload just for that.
Also, the dark rusty metal door textures are liable to change (Since every time I finish another I mess the palettes of all of them...)

Regarding different-looking textures: I think the only solution is to just leave Vigil's barrel and lamp textures out of the Enhancement Pack, and maybe to eventually include others which look more like the originals (but since I personally like Vigil's textures, it's certainly not at the top of my ToDo list.)
Again, the point of the grimy lamps is a bad example; let alone the presence or absence of grime, those lamps are rusty. They don't belong in rich homes at all.

For the most part, I've tried to keep the UV mapping the same for all the enhanced objects, though there are a few exceptions (apples, crates, chandelier, and also Vigil's footlockers)

As for Lady Rowena's wine barrels, I would argue that while the original textures don't look as out of place there, they still do look out of place. I think a new barrel texture for wine cellars is probably in order.

Any of you people willing to have a thorough look through the Enhancement Pack and tell me which objects you feel are too different in style?

Bear in mind that, if the EP was released and certain missions could 'opt out', people would probably find that mission much less visually pleasing after having seen what th Dark Engine is capable of.

Actually, I think a good solution to avoid any trouble is to only use custom resources in your FM. With the amount of custom stuff that's around, it shouldn't be that difficult, and will certainly make your FM stand out more...

Unfortunately it's not as simple as that; because it has a different lock from the original, my seachest also uses a different joint setup (one matching the regular footlocker-chest), and so it could never be a drop-in replacement without changing the gamesys or entirely changing how the lock works. And I doubt anyone would want that hideous padlock thing back

I think all it would take would be to swap the two joints around and change the dimensions. I might poke around with it myself if you don't want to and don't mind.

R Soul: While playing 'Assassins', I noticed that your painting models with backs on them cannot be looked through behind in the secret passages. This is not so good...

[Targa]

Points of note:
I spotted a bug in the Armoire model after uploading the pack, I'm not going to reupload just for that.

Was that mine or made by someone else? If mine, what's the bug?

[Vigil]

I think all it would take would be to swap the two joints around and change the dimensions. I might poke around with it myself if you don't want to and don't mind.

No, unfortunately it takes more than that - the joint setup in the archetype for the old seachest specifies different angle limits and directions than what the new seachest uses. This was why I decided to say to hell with it and use the footlocker joint setup in the first place.

[Nameless Voice]

Was that mine or made by someone else?

No, it was mine. (I'll probably need a new texture for it, too. That one was made from some random image I found on Google Images, and doesn't match the old armoire very well.)

Vigil: I might take a look at it anyway.

To be quite honest, and on the risk of sounding arrogant again, for a few of the replacements that are already in the pack I'd rather prefer the old objects.

*ducks away to avoid being hit by various rotten fruit and vegetables*

Not very helpful. Could you please be a little more specific so I can do my best to improve those objects?

And everyone else, could you please tell me what you liked and what you didn't?

[Eshaktaar]

Well, some objects are a matter of taste that can't be faulted objectively, but off the top of my head there's the new gambling table texture: If you place a card deck on it, you'll see that the table texture's cards are about three times the deck's size, which makes them twice the size of AI's hands.

[Harpalus]

I'm going to agree with Targa here. Creating a fan mission is great, but you can't force others into doing things a certain way. You're sounding rather like the RIAA and movie companies, shall you next implement DRM into your missions to prevent people from customisation? Whether fan mission designers like it or not, players have a right to customise their game how they choose, and if they wish to play your fan mission with different graphics, then you have no right to get furious at them for it.

[Lady Rowena]

Harpalus
Sometimes I spend hours changing textures, objects and lights in one single room just to see if it looks good. (in my point of wiew, of course). Therefore I don't think that you have the "right" to change anything. If you don't like it, just don't play it.

I don't know anything about RIAA and DRM, but I would say: do you want to decide the plot of the movie? You'll have to make one by yourself.

Do you want a customized FM? Start building your own mission then!

[Ottoj55]

i just wanted to chime in again about the texture size issue, this is a door from half life 2, its 256x512 by default, and below at 128x256. i think that its fine at the smaller size, though super sexy at the larger.

[Lady Rowena]

And everyone else, could you please tell me what you liked and what you didn't?

Well, since you asked for it....

Things I like:
swords and hammers, weapon display case, potions(although they have a different shape), various household, cooking stuff (but I find them a little too dark), various jars, LC jars, some food, books (I miss the purple one), footlocker, big table, gears, telescope.

Things I don't like:
apple(why a green one?), cheese(I almost can't see the holes), pipes(patched repetitive texture).Also I think that the old wood stuff is too dark.
Armiore - the new one just isn't the same object, I really loved the old historiated one.
Fancy bed - (I'm not speaking for myself here, because I created 6 different textures for it in my new FM), I don't like it at all, the round shape of the "columns" is inappropriate, the wood colour is too light, the bedspread seems just right for the kids room. Sorry if is sounds harsh, but I really don't like it.

All the rest....well, as Eshaktaar said, it's a matter of tastes. Generally speaking I think that the new objects, doors etc, should have more or less the same color/gradient of the old ones.
I think that's all.

PS - NV, I sent you a PM with a permission request.

[Morpheus]

Harpalus
Sometimes I spend hours changing textures, objects and lights in one single room just to see if it looks good. (in my point of wiew, of course). Therefore I don't think that you have the "right" to change anything. If you don't like it, just don't play it.

I don't know anything about RIAA and DRM, but I would say: do you want to decide the plot of the movie? You'll have to make one by yourself.

Do you want a customized FM? Start building your own mission then!

That's nice and all, but you'll have to get used to the fact that you have no control what-so-ever over what people do with your mission once it's been downloaded and they never distribute a changed version of your work.

[Ottoj55]

for the average thief player installing a playing a fan mission is good enough. i released a black and white mod, not a lot of talk about it, i think a object upgrade pack would have the same reaction. so ultimately you'd put the tools into the hands of people lacking the saavy to use them fully, they are best left in our hands to use as we see fit.

[Lady Rowena]

That's nice and all, but you'll have to get used to the fact that you have no control what-so-ever over what people do with your mission once it's been downloaded and they never distribute a changed version of your work.

I'm very sick of this subject, I've already answered. It's clear that people can do everything they want once they have my FM on their computer, but since I've spent a part of my life on it, since I care maybe too much, since it's my creation, I will do whatever I can to prevent them to change things in my FM.

I hope it's clear. Anyway English is not my language, so I can't explain it better, sorry.

Anyway this was NOT the subject of this thread...

[Logan]

I'm very sick of this subject, I've already answered. It's clear that people can do everything they want once they have my FM on their computer, but since I've spent a part of my life on it, since I care maybe too much, since it's my creation, I will do whatever I can to prevent them to change things in my FM.

I hope it's clear. Anyway English is not my language, so I can't explain it better, sorry.

As I make some year ago a Visual Pack for Thief Gold, nobody says it great or bad mission only because he installing it to the game, but as I spent many time collecting tonns of textures I can't look at thief1 or thief2 without crying. And I like Thief that way I make it, so FM becomes the same texturing and modeling only using changed resources of the main game. And I look at some ugly missions from another angle of view, and take opinion not because they bad architecturing, because beaty important for me. Cause we have very different mind to see objects models and of course Thief too. I think it's bad idea to change FM, cause it'a about 700, except if repacking it, so pack must be as a Patch for the game. If somebody like this - it'll stay, don't like - uninstall it. BUT THIS PATCH MUST BE!!!! I tired to make it by own forces, cause I not dromader, modeler, so I look for your work with a great waiting for it release.

Sorry for English. It's not my own language.