Reply With QuoteBetter luck next time.
ps: black screen in Thief2, could only play through Dromed, could only play for 5 seconds due to other obvious reasons.
This FM is by yours truly! Good luck!
http://thiefmissions.com/info.cgi?m=CitySquare
Better luck next time.
ps: black screen in Thief2, could only play through Dromed, could only play for 5 seconds due to other obvious reasons.
Last edited by TF; 13th Aug 2005 at 14:00.
The mission works for me.
Ah 5 minutes of joy.
Ah-ha, I read your big hint yesterday, and now here it is.
I can't play it until I get home ... but I hope it's not broken like TF suggests.
Well, the mission is working fine for me...and shadows...
EDIT:
@TF: This is just a wild siggestion, but maybe you got a corrupted file or something. Why not try re-downloading?
Works fine for me through GarrettLoader.
Thanks, Garret_729.I could play in darkloader with no problem. I completed the objectives in one minute.
spoiler:Then I looked around for 5-10 minutes, but I have run out of things to do.The chapel is not closed like the sign says.spoiler:The mission seems to be kind of unfinished. I think the space could be put to better use.I can't find the signet ring, I can't enter the bank, and I can't enter the conference room.
spoiler:The Chapel: Are you talking about the sign out front? I just needed a reason for the mechanist to be hostile. How would you feel if you walked into a church and got blasted?
The signet is in the pool. Search very hard near the bottom. I needed to make this mission more difficult...
The bank: One of the doors is unpickable, but one is, like RL. You normally can't open both doors in a set of double doors.
You're not supposed to enter the conference room.
I agree with your last statement... but don't nearly ALL FMs have a re-release?
Garret_729: A reason for the Mechanist priestess to be hostile?
Uhh...Isn't Garrett still being alive enough of a reason? Seems like enough of a reason to me.
Garrett being Garrett is enough a reason for hostility in general; every living thing hates him after all (at least I get that feeling often in Thief; it's pretty damn sad).
uhhh...*coughcough*
Actually, Karras is still alive - a scroll in the bank hints that this takes place right after FCB&T.
BTW: A few days ago I sent epitihumia an updated version...should be up soon.
Dude...why did you release this? I sat for about 2 hours looking over this thing and making corrections and giving you some pretty detailed comments and suggestions so YOU could go back and improve things, not just use my work!
Just so it's all clear I'm attaching the notes I sent to Garrett_729. Don't ever use somebody's work around here and not at least try and seek their permission. You have commited a severe breach of etiquette in case you were unaware. You never even sent me a note saying "thanks for your help." Sorry if this stings a bit and that I never stated in so many words that you were not to release the work I did. I just never imagined that anybody would do what you just did. I toyed with the idea of doing this via PM but for the sake of the integrity of the FM community I though a public lashing was in order.
attachment
1) Ambient light was set way to high. I don't know where it was set but I put it back to 20 20 20. If you are using Komag's menus (and you should)
Look for Tools/Ambient Light and fill in the field. I like 19 19 19 myself but the final decision on ambient light can be made when you are close to completion. If you like it set high while you work that's your decision. But I usually like to see how things will look when completed right from the start. The light bright function is good for checking out detail that will be obscured by real game lighting. To get the ambient light to take effect you need to re-light the map.
2) Put a radius on ALL lights...click on the light in one of the wire windows Editor/Edit Obj/ renderer/light and mess with the fields. There you can adjust brightness and radius...for a light of 125 bright I'd use a radius of 40 or so. You just have to experiment and go with what looks good and what's appropriate for the mission. Read: Can Garrett do what you want him to do here? The radius will cut down on the amount of strain on the engine because it will have to calculate far fewer variables. It will also make your lighting more realistic.
3) Seems you did not have the grid on. Until you are WELL versed in DromED leaving the grid off is a recipe for disaster! Even then it's still probably not a good idea! I set your grid to 13. At 13 everything will snap to a resolution of either .00 or .50 the smallest brush you can make is 1x1x1. If you see a brush snaped to say X 500.11 Y 500.32 and Z 500.22 you know the grid is not working. 13 is a good start for beginers because 1 is an easy # to deal with. Towards the end of your mission if you want to add finer detail you can go down to grid size 12. There you can make a brush as small as .5 x .5 x .5 and can snap to a resolution of .00, .25 , .50, .75 Just remeber, once you set the grid to a lower number you can't go back up to a higher number without screwing up your smaller brushes! Say at 12 you make a brush that 8 x 12 x .5....if you set to grid 13 the .5 will become a 1 since 1 is the smallest resolution you can get with grid 13.
4) For outside spaces like the big air brush you made for the starting area stick with multipuls of 8. Your first big brush is 50 x 76 x 40. 48 x 80 x 40
will look essentially the same and will put slightly less strain on the game engine. For smaller areas multipuls of 4 are usually just fine and you can
also get away with multipuls of 2. Your textures will thank you since they tend to repeat at intervals of 4 or 8 not 10 or 9 or 7. It's not that you can't
use a 50 76 40 brush if that is what you really need...it's just that unless there is a GOOD reason to use that size it's best to stick with established
building principles. Don't break a rule if you don't have to.
5) Avoid "paper thin" walls. Your big start air brush and the air brush where you have the little pond are only 1 unit apart. Think about it. That large
stone wall is only 8 inches or a foot thick. (To me one drom unit looks about 8 inches "in the real world") You wouldn't make a wall that's about 30-40
feet high and 8 inches thick in the real world. So think about how your brush work holds up in reality. Would something real be designed like this?
Keep asking yourself that question. Again, if there's a good reason to break a rule do so. If not, stick with convention. Walls are almost always at
least 2 units thick. 3-4 might be even better depending on the situation. 1 might be OK for a indoor wall but outside walls for a structure of medium to
large size should be at least 2. The wall in question also has another problem. It's paper thin and appears to be made of two different
materials...brick on one side, stone on the other. Again, what would seem likely to occur in the real world is usually appropriate in the game world.
6) The building with the big green doors a few feet west of your start point. Well things are kind of a mess in here! You have a 1 unit think brick wall that's well longer than the space it's in. (Read...it sticks out into the soild void) There is nothing "wrong" with the brush doing this, but it's just sloppy
brush work. Sloppyness will cause a problem sooner or later. If the brush needs to fill a space that's 45 units deep....make it 45 units deep. Also,
45 units....bad. 40 or 48 units good! I'd go with 40 or 48 for this large indoor space. Also the portal for the doors. The wall is 1 unit thick...the air
brushes for the doors should be 1 unit thick too. It's not "wrong" for an air brush to intersect with another air brush but in this case it is "incorrect."
Build neatly and you will make your life easier in the long run. Also the celing above. A stone cealing that large and flat would most likely want to
crumble down upon Garrett's head! Large flat celings are better made of wood. And even then some support would likely be employed. The bay
door...you have two doors where one will do. Put a portal air brush in the wall so the door has some place to be and the space now seems consistant
with the real world. I'm now going to change the room in question around a bit. Compare it to the .mis file you sent me. (Actually I changed quite a few things on the map so have a good look around.)
7) Use the gird to your advantage and place objects (especially doors) so they line up with the grid like a brush would. EX. A door is best set perfectly in the air brush you create for it. Take the door to the warehouse. It's now set at X 515.00 Y 457.00 Z 484.00 If you have a number like 515.05 that should probably be set to exactly 515.00 . Also be mindfull of the rotation and pitch of objects. A light on a wall should have a "H" of 0 or 90 or 180 or 270. It's OK to hand rotate a light so it faces the right direction but look at the "H" when you are done. If it reads 2.33 it should really be 0. If it reads 88.9 it should really be 90. Now this assumes that the brush in question has not been rotated and that it's wires go true north, south,east and west.
8) As for your objectives you seem to have done them correctly. But I think you were missing an "End Room" You had created a concrete brush in the room heierachy but you didn't seem to create the brush in the map. (Or maybe you had just placed it incorrectly.) I deleated all the room brushes
and did them over. You'll notice I added a small starting area and created the End Room brush around it. After I did that the objectives worked OK.
9) You've still got some work to do but just keep at it. DromEd is not an easy thing and it takes time for stuff to sink in.
Good Luck and keep at it
-Sly- :-)
Ummmm....while there might be slight fixes in a rerelease we tend to encourage beta testing so that the fixes are just that...slight. Doing a general release of a "beta" is rather uncool. There are plenty of folks willing to beta...just ask.Originally Posted by Garret_729
I agree with your last statement... but don't nearly ALL FMs have a re-release?
Sylfoxx, I'm a little confused by your comments (great suggestions though), did you beta this mission or was this an abandoned piece of work on your part that Garrett_729 took over?
Haha, whammo, Garret_729 hasn't dissapointed me afterall.
It sounds like SlyFoxx helped him fix up the mission, then Garret rushed to release it. "Slyfoxx - minor changes" from the readme just didn't cut it
The way I read things, it sounds like Slyfoxx beta-tested the mission, then made the changes he suggested to the .mis file to show Garrett_729 what he was talking about, (mainly because of the roombrush comments) and that was what was released.
If that's right, I'm pretty disgusted with Garrett_729. Either way, just looking at the suggestions, I'd say if I ever finish a mission, Sly's testing it.
She's not a maniac, a raving thing, she just goes a little mad sometimes.
I'm not suffering from insanity; I enjoy every minute of it.
I wasn't testing the mission. That would imply that Garrett_729 had asked me to beta test it and that he made it clear to me that this was getting close to a release. I was asked about the "end room" objective and when I opened the file I saw numerous mistakes and a .mis file that looked like the begining of a small mission. So I fixed about 30-40 things and gave comments about most of what I had done so he could learn a few things and continue building. I mean really...who releases something so incomplete? Never in a million years did I expect to see this up for DL in a few days.
If he had asked me to use the work I would have probably said yes...but only after I had seen that he'd actually taken the time to digest the info and taken the time to implement some of the suggestions on his own and to polish the mission into something better. But putting something out like this cheapens his effort and mine!
This community survives because FM designers put in hundreds if not thousands of hours of hard work and take the time to actually learn things. I can't think of any FM author who would use somebody's work and not at least attempt to seek permission first. So this public lashing is to serve as an example to all the new guys/gals that mission designers take their work seriously. And we don't take kindly to folks taking short cuts and not doing their own work.
It may be harsh but I agree completely. Many of us have put months and months into dromeding and even if our efforts are seldom perfect they at least provide an interesting challenge in an environment that we've worked hard at creating.
Azrahnn once realeased a mission which if memory serves she'd put together in a couple of hours {can't remember the name}. The difference is that she'd put in considerable effort and talent to create a tiny, quick but very entertaining FM. The architecture was nice and showed what you can do with a bit of thought.
I'd hardly call this a mission it's so incomplete, but it could have been if some effort had been expended. I feel the author needs to remove it and put some time and imagination into it if he expects people to play. I'm afraid I gave up very quickly when confronted with a large box with patrolling guards.
As I say sorry to be harsh.
Ahhh...thanks for the clear up.
And this is the key Garret_729, we really do want you to make FMs, great FMs. There are tons of people willing to help...I mean Slyfoxx did an unbelievably detailed lookover. The community survives because we work together. There are many people who want you to succeed and are willing to do what they can to help you get there.
Remember, one time can be forgiven, but please utilize the resources (people here) and don't do this again.
Basically, he asked you for help, you went above and beyond to help him sort out multiple problems with his FM, then he claimed your work was his?Talk about getting backstabbed (or maybe blackjacked?) for being helpful.
Was it Easy Money, maybe?
She's not a maniac, a raving thing, she just goes a little mad sometimes.
I'm not suffering from insanity; I enjoy every minute of it.
That was it, and I'm fairly sure I spelt her name wrong. Oops.
Okay, looks like I have a lot of explaining to do, which will be hard, because I'm on the verge of tears.
SlyFoxx: I actually can't believe I was so mean to you, never saying thanks. I sincerly apologize, and I'm appalled that I would do that..
Two hours? Two hours? I thought you just took 10-15 minutes, because it was so small...
To the room: I'm sorry. I just wasn't sure what SF intended me to do...I...I acted without thinking, which is a really stupid thing to do.
I swear I'll never do this again. If I do, feel free to ban me, or something...
Sorry if I really hurt your feelings, but you hurt mine, and I think I'll go away from this forum for a while. I mean, you made me feel bad, like some evil person! I worked on this mission too! I put more than two hours into it, and you flame me! If that's how you're going to act...
It seems that, at the very least, one can say Garret's behavior was not intentionally malignant and is due primarily to a simple lack of experience with the norms and etiquette of FM making and releasing and a due respect for the good-faith help of others in the community, which is understandable (if still not entirely forgiveable) for someone not in day-to-day touch with the group who views FM making with much less care as a throw-together hobby like many people did in the early days of dromed if you go back and look.
I certainly don't want to defend his behavior, but it's easy to lose touch of the fact that real people with real feelings are on the other side on an internet forum (unfortunately!). It really should be common-sense, but for someone in that kind of mindset simply just not experienced with internet-communities (I mean really participating and working at it, not just posting now and then), I can see how that kind of due respect might get unintentially missed in the rush to finish a project just for the thrill of finishing it.
I think, while maybe a bit harsh, what was said by esp SF was perfectly within his right to say ...
But I also think it is good to combine that with the message to Garret that we are a community of fans interested in dromed and FMs, and while we aren't a cult or anything, we take pride in our craft (I say "our", but who knows when I'll ever release my long-gestating baby ...) and more importantly, we respect what each of us has to offer the group, and what Garret did was a kind of slap to that kind of respect, but again, I don't think it was intentional. It just didn't enter into his mind one way or another due to a lack of experience and sensitivity not too uncommon among people rushing thru an internet chat forum (again, unfortunately!).
That, along with what appears to be a sincere apology, seems to suggest to me that at least Garret was not acting in bad faith and it is best to just let things cool down over time and take him at his word than to blacklist him as some kind of pariah.
-------------------------------------------------
Anyway, my take on the whole thing is that this is why it is important that we direct new builders to the *best mission-release practices* sticky in TEG (every chance we get; it should be a goal that no one releases a mission without reading that thread), and within that thread we should really stress the importance of sensitivity to the help of others, asking for permission, giving credit, etc..., before releasing the work to the public.
The above sums up my feelings very well.
We're (SF/Me) both to blame for lack of communication. In short, this whole thing was just a huge misunderstanding and no more need be said about it.
I feel this sums up my feelings very well.It seems that, at the very least, one can say Garret's behavior was not intentionally malignant and is due primarily to a simple lack of experience with the norms and etiquette of FM making and releasing and a due respect for the good-faith help of others in the community, which is understandable (if still not entirely forgiveable) for someone not in day-to-day touch with the group who views FM making with much less care as a throw-together hobby like many people did in the early days of dromed if you go back and look.
I certainly don't want to defend his behavior, but it's easy to lose touch of the fact that real people with real feelings are on the other side on an internet forum (unfortunately!). It really should be common-sense, but for someone in that kind of mindset simply just not experienced with internet-communities (I mean really participating and working at it, not just posting now and then), I can see how that kind of due respect might get unintentially missed in the rush to finish a project just for the thrill of finishing it.
I think, while maybe a bit harsh, what was said by esp SF was perfectly within his right to say ...
But I also think it is good to combine that with the message to Garret that we are a community of fans interested in dromed and FMs, and while we aren't a cult or anything, we take pride in our craft (I say "our", but who knows when I'll ever release my long-gestating baby ...
That, along with what appears to be a sincere apology, seems to suggest to me that at least Garret was not acting in bad faith and it is best to just let things cool down over time and take him at his word than to blacklist him as some kind of pariah.
-------------------------------------------------
Anyway, my take on the whole thing is that this is why it is important that we direct new builders to the *best mission-release practices* sticky in TEG (every chance we get; it should be a goal that no one releases a mission without reading that thread), and within that thread we should really stress the importance of sensitivity to the help of others, asking for permission, giving credit, etc..., before releasing the work to the public.
I think we (SF/Me) are both to blame for lack of communication, btw.
In short, this whole this was just a misunderstanding and no more need be said about it.
Alright, now everything has been said. Valid points, vented feelings, everything. Now, let's forgive the errors and/or slights, and drop it. Forgive him, give him a clean slate, and let him start over again. Let any apologies left to be made, be between him and the offended alone, and give him a chance to build his reputation without a dark cloud over his head.
Well said uncadonego. I consider the matter closed. Nuff' said. Thread locked. Now let's get back to making missions.
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